What the *&$#* happened with the finish line in De Morelaying-down?
Post by iconPost by Acg1 | 2020-05-22 | 03:09:20

So .... as best I can tell .... VR just gave the Royal two finger salute to all users of the App version ... left the displayed finish line being inconsistent with the actual finish line and so caused App users to believe they had finished when actually not the case. Now causing many users to just drop out for frustration after good race. At least it would be easy to fix .... adjust all finish times to when all boats where 3NM away from the port instead of 2NM and publish new finish results - the data is there, just run the new report ...

commenticon 15 Comments
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2020-05-22 | 15:36:50
Someone just posted on Facebook that VR have offered a free full option pack for a future race at the same VSR. Guess you have to contact support now and complain so they get you on the list.
Post by iconPost by Acg1 | 2020-05-22 | 21:45:42
So ... get a “free full pack” for a future race and face possibility of it happening again ... they’ve got the data for 3NM “finish” time in the server data and they are coding professionals .... what’s stopping them correcting the record to give correct finish times at a 3NM limit and then make up for loss of goodwill with the “free” pack. That would go a lot further towards showing the error is corrected and those who spent are compensated.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2020-05-22 | 22:13:26
You're preaching to the choir.

I can feel your pain, but you won't find help here.

In 10 years I've sailed more than 500 virtual races. Seen hundreds of bugs. Learned to live with it. A lot of people just got fed up and quit.

But you won't change the ways of VR.

Wanna try - go to their forum and support.

Wanna live with it - look around here for hints and advice.

Post by iconPost by YourMomSA | 2020-05-22 | 22:49:23
Exactly... We've all been VERY angry with VR about these kinds of things in the past. I can remember multiple races ruined after committing serious time and emotion into them, only to receive VR's laissez faire, c'est la vie, response. Some people quit. I did for a couple months and then came back, but I can think if multiple past highly-ranked users who eventually got sick of situations like this and decided to never come back. Others learn to live with it. Living with it basically means accepting that this kind of thing will happen, watching for mistakes, trying to mitigate the mess as best we can, and trying to control our anger.

I'd roughly guess that a major debacle like this happens twice per year. They run what... 20-25 races per year? So... I guess I'm estimating a serious debacle in 5-10% of races. Sometimes things that only the frontrunners care much about but which ruin your chance for a top-10 finish... But other times things that impact the whole fleet in inconsistent and unfair ways. Either way, the best you ever get is a mild apology and free entry in a future race of similar categorization.

They have an excellent product, but they make mistakes sometimes, and their response to those mistakes tends to make user feel like they have no comprehension of, let alone respect for, the time and emotion that users invest into trying to finish well.

Anyway... It is very important for newer users to understand that VR has no affiliation with Zezo, and they do not participate in the Zezo forums. There is nothing Cvetan or anyone else in these forums can do to impact VR's product, decision-making, or communication. So... VR's forum, or direct requests to VR for support, are the better ways to voice frustration, suggestions for improvement, etc. The Zezo forum is where users are just trying to optimize our VR experience.

Post by iconPost by lorenzo | 2020-05-23 | 01:24:36
I quote 100% Cvetan and YM.
I would also add that they are extremely bad communicators, several times stupid mistakes could have been solved with a clear and honest statement instead of pissing off people with imaginative or absurd excuses.
the way I have survived with them for 10 years has been stopping giving them even one euro in the last years. Of course I don't win and I'm happy when I reach the top 300 but at least I don't feel fooled.
And Zezo place is fun, there are extremely talented people

Post by iconPost by Acg1 | 2020-05-23 | 21:52:03
I fully recognise that the Zezo platform is not VR ... but I would suggest that it is a place where communication can happen and if there are players in here who do have lines of communication to VR (there will be some hey...), then sometimes the objective of the communication here might be to raise awareness for other discussion. Have a look at the latest post on the “bug” thread of VR forum for example...who is “Jessica”?

I agree that errors happen - no prob - thing is this one is so easy to rectify with access to the server based records of boat time at the 3NM limit ... so easy to rectify it blows the mind to think they wouldn’t just do that...assuming VR have access to those records, what is the negative interest to not do that?

In terms of “learning” from this experience, does it thus now mean that to optimise the finish time what we all should be doing is assuming the finish has to be directly AT the finish mark and NOT the finish circle for those races? If so, that could change strategies and potentially have a bigger impact on boats choosing not to buy accessories like fast winches ... so it could have a “real” impact if you just take the “learn from the experience” approach here...
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2020-05-23 | 21:59:54
Posting something here can actually be counter-productive. I have strange love-hate relationship with VR.

Jessica is the mythical VR support person. Or robot. Or actual person. Or at least some answers to support questions have been signed that way. But I'm off the VR forum for many, many years and don't have the slightest idea what's happening there nowadays.

Or maybe I do have an idea and that's why I'm off. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2020-05-23 | 22:04:09
The finish itself has been a big mystery over the years. Nobody really knows what counts. Supposedly it's not just the time you cross the line, it's the projection of your boat track within the circle. Or it was that way 5 years ago.
Post by iconPost by MidnightFoiler | 2020-05-26 | 07:23:08
Do you mean you think they do something like calculate how long it would take with your final velocity vector to reach or "pass" the finish point?

Which would mean its best to be pointing at the middle of the circle or optimise your CMG perpendicular to where you cross the circle?

If so, yikes, that's horrible and pointless except to add to the mystery that is the ranking in this game!
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2020-05-26 | 08:14:27
Not sure how it works now, but when the game was running in 10 minute steps the criteria was supposedly "who's closer to the center at the end of the step", not the moment you cross the circle.

Now it might be something else, but the 15-minute delay of the preliminary ranking should have some purpose.

The entire idea of finish circle vs. finish line is broken. You are trying to compare boats coming at different directions, angles and speed. Not that the shape matters if you are calculating the _time_ of crossing.
Post by iconPost by Hardtack | 2020-05-26 | 09:25:31
I was wondering why they chose a finish circle too.

In reason might be, it seems very easy to determine whether a boat has finished:
As they are computing the distance to finish anyway, just check if DTF is smaller than the finish circle radius. But maybe then they realized this does not give you the finish time, and added some home made solution to compute it?
Like computing the time the boat takes to cover (at its current speed) the radial distance to the circle?!

The proper way to determine the finish time is obviously, to compute the intersection of the boat track and the finish circle, and then compute the time when the boat reached this position. This involves solving a quadratic equation, as opposed to a linear equation for a finish line. But the whole boat simulation requires some fairly complex trigonometric computations (I hope), so I they really should be able to get this right too.

Maybe we should let the Dashboard check their finish calculation :-)

Post by iconPost by zezo | 2020-05-26 | 09:55:56
Not so complex. I'd call it linear math with few trig functions. The game mechanics boils down to:


lat2 = asin(sin(lat1)*cos(dist) + cos(lat1)*sin(dist)*cos(brng));

lon2 = lon1 +
atan2(sin(brng)*sin(dist)*cos(lat1),cos(dist)-sin(lat1)*sin(lat2));

P.S. I know that you know this ;-)
Post by iconPost by YourMomSA | 2020-05-26 | 15:46:28
They have the capability to use normal finish lines... They do it in some of the record events, such as Spindrift. But for some reason, they prefer to use the circle most of the time.
Post by iconPost by Hardtack | 2020-05-26 | 20:09:49
Hm, you are right. Also the ranking gates work exactly like a finish line. Deepens the mystery even more.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2020-05-26 | 20:15:08
Also, it's easier to intersect two GC segments than a GC and a surface circle.

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