Zezo forum:

Post by Tigrou26 | 2020-10-21 | 10:09:49

Do you know if it is possible to find the numerical coordinates of the ice exclusion zone of the Virtual Regatta Vendee Globe ( the red line that you see around the antartic continent ?

81 Comments

Post by LinusVanpelt | 2020-10-21 | 14:18:42

Yes it's possible ;)
You can find it, on the official VG web site, in annex to the rules, & similar to the VR limits

Post by Le nain vert | 2020-11-27 | 16:19:59

Hi everibody!

Thanks Cveltan for your fantastic job.

I was wondering if you can navigate on the white squares without suffering the penalties?

Post by Tigrou26 | 2020-10-21 | 15:06:05

I know the official data but what I want to be sure is that VR use the same one
Also what I want to know is : is there somebody who know how VR send these information? Where can we find them in the WS ? Are these information sent by VR ? and How?

Post by Hardtack | 2020-10-21 | 15:34:59

Switch on the debugger (press F12) to see Network traffic.
Ice limits are in the getboatinfos response:

0: {lat: -56, lon: -180}
1: {lat: -56.4167, lon: -175}
2: {lat: -56.25, lon: -170}
3: {lat: -55.6667, lon: -165}
4: {lat: -54.75, lon: -160}
5: {lat: -53.9167, lon: -155}
6: {lat: -53.6667, lon: -150}
7: {lat: -53.6667, lon: -145}
8: {lat: -53.6667, lon: -140}
9: {lat: -53.6667, lon: -135}
10: {lat: -53.9167, lon: -130}
11: {lat: -54.0833, lon: -125}
12: {lat: -54.25, lon: -120}
13: {lat: -54.6667, lon: -115}
14: {lat: -55.25, lon: -110}
15: {lat: -55.75, lon: -105}
16: {lat: -56.25, lon: -100}
17: {lat: -57, lon: -95}
18: {lat: -57.75, lon: -90}
19: {lat: -58.5, lon: -85}
20: {lat: -59, lon: -80}
21: {lat: -58.75, lon: -75}
22: {lat: -58, lon: -70}
23: {lat: -57, lon: -65}
24: {lat: -56, lon: -60}
25: {lat: -55, lon: -55}
26: {lat: -52.25, lon: -50}
27: {lat: -49, lon: -45}
28: {lat: -48, lon: -40}
29: {lat: -46, lon: -35}
30: {lat: -45, lon: -30}
31: {lat: -44, lon: -25}
32: {lat: -43.5, lon: -20}
33: {lat: -43, lon: -15}
34: {lat: -43, lon: -10}
35: {lat: -43.5, lon: -5}
36: {lat: -43.5, lon: 0}
37: {lat: -43.6667, lon: 5}
38: {lat: -43.8333, lon: 10}
39: {lat: -44.0833, lon: 15}
40: {lat: -44.4167, lon: 20}
41: {lat: -44.8333, lon: 25}
42: {lat: -45.3333, lon: 30}
43: {lat: -45.9167, lon: 35}
44: {lat: -46.5833, lon: 40}
45: {lat: -47.25, lon: 45}
46: {lat: -47.9167, lon: 50}
47: {lat: -48.75, lon: 55}
48: {lat: -49.6667, lon: 60}
49: {lat: -50.5833, lon: 65}
50: {lat: -50.9167, lon: 70}
51: {lat: -50.9167, lon: 75}
52: {lat: -50.6667, lon: 80}
53: {lat: -50.4167, lon: 85}
54: {lat: -50, lon: 90}
55: {lat: -49, lon: 95}
56: {lat: -47.75, lon: 100}
57: {lat: -46, lon: 105}
58: {lat: -46, lon: 110}
59: {lat: -46, lon: 115}
60: {lat: -46, lon: 120}
61: {lat: -48.8333, lon: 125}
62: {lat: -50.75, lon: 130}
63: {lat: -51.9167, lon: 135}
64: {lat: -52.25, lon: 140}
65: {lat: -52.4167, lon: 145}
66: {lat: -52.75, lon: 150}
67: {lat: -53.25, lon: 155}
68: {lat: -53.8333, lon: 160}
69: {lat: -54.25, lon: 165}
70: {lat: -54.8333, lon: 170}
71: {lat: -55.4167, lon: 175}
72: {lat: -56, lon: 180}

Post by YourMomSA | 2020-10-21 | 16:08:44

Nice! Are we able to answer some additional questions (assuming VR didn't answer these themselves somewhere that I haven't seen, since I haven't registered yet...)...

-Is the limit between points the great circle line or rhumb?

-Does it appear to be shown accurately in the UI?

-What happens if you hit or cross the limit?

-Will it be shown in Dashboard's map, and if so, how confident are we in its accuracy there at max zoom, relative to how VR's engine will apply it?

The last time I can recall VR having an ice limit was the last Vendee. If I remember correctly, you got a severe speed penalty until you returned to the correct side of the line, and maybe also for 5 more minutes after getting to the correct side, or something like that. I think the lines were rhumb, so I think if you were able to get to a straight horizontal line and set your course to exactly 90.0 just North of it, you were safe... But if you used waypoints, the waypoints would navigate using great circle, so you'd violate it. That was an issue, but for valid reasons. The other issue was that if you sailed toward the line and then altered course away from it, it would still decide you had violated the line if your projected course was going to cross it within the same 10-minute cycle, or something like that. That was a problem for bad reasons. I think I fouled that 2 or 3 times. Drove me nuts.

Post by zezo | 2020-10-21 | 19:16:13

They look like straight lines in Mercator projection, so probably rhumb lines. Or just linear interpolation - should be close enough.

As you note, With GC the "horizontal" lines at 70E-75E 105E-120E would be slightly curved South, and they are not. But the it's a small difference, so may just not be visible. Thanks for the reminder about the waypoints.

Polars say 30% speed in the ice zone ("iceSpeedRatio": 0.3)

Google maps use GC by default. Not sure if the current API can draw rhumb lines, but it probably can - the object has "geodesic" attribute.

Post by Hardtack | 2020-10-21 | 19:19:48

I didn't see any further info from VR either, but Pat-Rock just opened a thread on ice limits. Quote:

En effet, en navigation dans le grand Sud votre trajectoire entre deux points, pourra ne pas �tre rigoureusement rectiligne et vous pourriez d�passer la ligne sans vous en apercevoir.
--
Infact, when navigating in the deep South, your trajectory between two points may not be rigorously straight and you could pass the line without noticing it.

VR seems to display the line segments as rhumb lines, while I chose geodesic lines. Hmm. Probably should have used rhumb lines as well. Somebody tell me.

Post by zezo | 2020-10-21 | 19:22:20

Probably yes ;-)

Because of the waypoints.

Post by Hardtack | 2020-10-21 | 19:35:53

Ah, right. I'll change to rhumb lines as soon as I can, but have to wait for the current version to be processed by Google first.

Post by Hardtack | 2020-10-21 | 20:16:26

Argh, re-reading all the comments I'm confused.

As far as I know a boat uses the shortest path between waypoints - that is, the GC line. By contrast, in heading mode the boat moves on the rhumb line (by definition).

So if the ice limit segments are like waypoints, I really should use geodesic lines on the Google map?! But then VR's own map would be wrong, as it clearly shows straight lines?

Post by YourMomSA | 2020-10-21 | 22:29:24

In 2016, the lines were definitely rhumb. The curvature of GC is quite pronounced that far South, and I remember in 2016 seeing that waypoints along the line would violate the line consistently, whereas a straight line compass course did not.

Post by Tigrou26 | 2020-10-22 | 08:26:44

Hello Hardtack,

I suppose that you find this message in the network / WS data, but at home I don't find anymore the request and the answer in the message pending /.../WS
I have messages concerning user, money, authorisation , polar but no information concerning getboatinfos, I don't know why ?
I try this on two PC at home, one on Windows 7 and the other on Windows 10 with the same result : no message "getboatinfos"
Perhaps it would be necessary to activate or desactivate somewhere
Thank you for your help

Post by Hardtack | 2020-10-22 | 08:49:53

It's not a websocket message, but an XHR request. Select either 'XHR' or 'All' on the debugger Network tab. If you're seeing too many requests, try filtering for 'vro-api'.
Not all getboatinfo responses include leg data. You may have to exit and re-enter VR Offshore. The request should then be sent when you log in to the VG race.

Post by Tigrou26 | 2020-10-22 | 09:54:50

Thank you very much, I found them

Post by bikeinside | 2020-11-20 | 05:24:59

How can I import this in qtVLM?, found a Link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9sag4k52a2qyrj/zea_151120.qbar?dl=0

Post by SlyStarLeRetour | 2020-11-30 | 12:32:39

Hello, do you have the updated ice limit after VR changed it?

Thanks for your great work!

Kind regards
Sylvain

Post by Tigrou26 | 2020-10-22 | 08:38:28

I think that when you use a mode with constant heading (rhumb line) and with a 90� heading you shoud go lightly toward the North and not cut the parallel line, it is not the case with the grand circle navigation (orthodromy) where you will cut the parallel if you want to navigate between two point of the same parallel

Post by zezo | 2020-10-22 | 09:09:24

Historically, you can't draw GC lines on a paper chart. So if the sailing instructions say "don't cross the line between such and such points, that would imply rhumb lines

Post by Eliric | 2020-10-30 | 01:00:23

Is there any way to have the exclusion zone projected as rhumb lines in the map of the VR Dashboard?

Post by Hardtack | 2020-10-30 | 09:40:51

I added the ice limit to the Dashboard a couple of days ago. After some discussion zezo and YourMomSA convinced me of using rhumb lines. Does it not work for you?

Post by Eliric | 2020-10-30 | 17:39:10

Thanks Hardtack, I updated my Chrome extension am now I see the exclusion
zone on the map of VR Dashboard.

Post by CoreTeam | 2020-10-30 | 13:09:24

I don't know how they programmed things in the game.... but in the real race racing instructions says:

Antarctic Exclusion Zone
The Atlantic Exclusion Zone is a polygon defines by straight-line loxodromic segments linking virtual points.

Post by kalle | 2020-10-31 | 12:35:58

@Hardtack. How did you added the limit into Dashboard?

Post by Hardtack | 2020-10-31 | 13:56:22

Ice limits are included in a VR boatinfo message sent right after you enter the race.

Post by Gaffophone | 2020-10-31 | 17:20:43

Hi Organisation changes a first time AEZ, so to have a look if VR also do ?

Post by urbicande | 2020-11-05 | 09:00:17

Hello
In the Vend�e Globe games, waypoint N � 1 is on the ice limit, is this normal, knowing that we have to bypass it?

Post by zezo | 2020-11-05 | 09:31:52

Those are just few random points to get you going because the router won't sail around the world by itself.

Ideally, you should be moving your own destination point along the way, observing weather systems and patterns and placing it accordingly.

With the ice limit in the South Ocean keeping the destination few days ahead of you is usually enough, but sometimes there are choices of two distinct routes around a system.

Post by urbicande | 2020-11-05 | 10:02:21

Thank you Cvetan, I understood the method well, but although we are not a decision maker I wanted to talk about the N � 1 passage buoy in the Vend�e Globe games?

Post by zezo | 2020-11-05 | 10:16:00

There is no buoy in the game itself.

Only proper gate in game is Cape Horn because of the passage N of it.

We are likely to sail very close to the ice limit, so I've placed few random points around the world close to the line.

Post by Stevoo | 2020-11-12 | 10:44:42

Good day
Anyone knows what penalties apply for crossing the line? Sorry just saw it above, is that confirmed? the 30% speed in the ice zone ("iceSpeedRatio": 0.3)

Post by Tigrou26 | 2020-11-12 | 10:50:52

Yes, your speed is multiplied by 0,3

Post by Jeanbern19 | 2020-11-12 | 18:40:09

Hello, will the ice line be depicted on ZEZO as it approaches Antarctica?

Thank you

Post by zezo | 2020-11-12 | 19:15:53

Yes. Yo can try a routing in the Southern ocean right now. Tip: Control-click and Shift-click set the routing origin and destination.

I'm treating the line as a hard limit right now, which is fine from routing perspective, but you can't get out once you get too deep below line.

Will probably fix it to adjust the speed once we get close, but OTOH it just wastes time drawing retarded isochrones.

Post by YourMomSA | 2020-11-14 | 15:06:42

FWIW... Routings now can reach the ice limit, and it doesn't look like the speed adjustment is in yet. I'm also not seeing it as a hard limit. I'm seeing routings that cross the line at full speed.

Not trying to pressure Cvetan to do something. Just observing it for reference. I don't think it impacts short-term decisionmaking yet.

Post by zezo | 2020-11-15 | 21:21:11

Got "Ignore gates" checked?

Post by YourMomSA | 2020-11-16 | 03:43:14

Ahhh....!! Thanks! I almost always have that turned on. It hasn't occurred to me that it might affect the ice zone routings.

Post by zezo | 2020-11-16 | 08:00:17

It was not affecting it at first, I brought it inside the if() few days after the start.

Post by Inicio | 2020-11-28 | 09:19:11

The Antarctic Exclusion Zone was raised on the side of the Crozet archipelago ...

From today newsletter

Post by YourMomSA | 2020-11-28 | 20:56:56

It doesn't look like it has been updated in the game yet, and I assume Cvetan won't change the router unless the game changes. They're a VR forum about this, but it's all in French. As far as I can tell, it hasn't been made clear whether or not the game's ice limit will be adjusted.

The good news for now is... It looks like the routing is probably to head down to the limit and hug it for the next 3 days regardless of whether or not this change is implemented... So... Hopefully if they change it in the game, there's still plenty of time for that to happen without hurting competitors.

Post by zezo | 2020-11-28 | 21:31:49

Thanks. I was going to check but forgot about it.

And yes, game still has the old definition.

Post by Ormetkruper | 2020-11-28 | 21:50:14

So the next question is how do we best hug and navigate the ice zone and stay on the safe side?
I guess waypoints is the safest choice?

Post by NormanB | 2020-11-28 | 21:55:44

I am new to this so don�t beat me up.

Not sure if this is a new fact or sheds any light on the Distance to the Finish conundrum in Virtual Regatta.

But - at 2100 this evening (28/11/20) Virtual Regatta was reporting the real race leader Apiva at 24,563 miles from the finish whereas the Virtual Regatta was reporting Apiva at 18288. So clearly there is a significant departure from reality in this virtual world.😉
I know it�s only a game but I have been sailing at 12knots + for 24 hours pointing in the right direction down the course but my DTF (which I record every 24 hours) indicates that I have travelled 106 miles backwards along the track.

Has anyone contacted VR on this issue and got an answer?

Post by zezo | 2020-11-28 | 22:12:34

I can tell you are new at this ;-)

VR is a bit like Chuck Norris.

VR does not give answers.

There are cases when you are moving backwards because you've missed a buoy, and that is bad. Now there are no buoys to miss other than Cape Horn, so don't worry about it.

Post by zezo | 2020-11-28 | 22:15:40

@Ormetkruper waypoints are not entirely safe because at that latitude the orthodrome crosses the loxodrome pretty soon. So don't use long legs like a day ahead - you WILL cross the red line. Shorter legs with small safety margin should be OK.

There is at least another thread about it http://zezo.org/forum.pl?tid=8163

Post by Hardtack | 2020-11-29 | 09:20:14

The ice limit has changed at longitudes -50 to 25 compared to the last version I know, but I'm not sure if I had the latest version before. Maybe somebody else can double check.

Edit:
Sorry, no changes in the game.
I was comparing to an already outdated version.

Post by zezo | 2020-11-29 | 09:56:06

Yes.

Post by Scup | 2020-11-30 | 00:24:42

It's starting to feel like this race will be won by whoever does the best job of staying just this side of the ice limits and being right on the edge.

Post by YourMomSA | 2020-11-30 | 01:33:15

Somewhat... It'll be like that for those who want to stay close to the front. But once we split from the ice limit after Cape Horn, it will be a whole new game among those who are within a couple hours of the leader.

Hopefully...

Or... If the ice limit has been implemented poorly, it'll also be a game of who figures out the bugs best. My biggest fear is that I'll hit a bug that makes me think I'm in violation, 5 minutes after going to sleep, only to wake up the next morning and see I've been doing 30% speed for 7 hours.

Post by Scup | 2020-11-30 | 02:07:26

You're getting sleep?

Post by BooBill | 2020-11-30 | 01:50:14

Tell me why shaving the ice limit is that much of an advantage?

Besides the risk of accidentally crossing it, it's sort of like being lee shored. You've given up your option to manoeuvre in one direction. If the new forecast comes in with a bit of a lift and now you're either forced to gybe or sail a bad angle.

Post by Scup | 2020-11-30 | 02:06:24

I see your point BooBill, but doesn't going further south mean that you need to travel few nm's to the finish?

Post by YourMomSA | 2020-11-30 | 13:45:49

Good point. I think it's circumstantial, just as allowing yourself to be lee shored is. Yes, the distance is marginally less, but the difference if you're 1 nm from the line versus 0.03 nm from the line is tiny. So... when is it worth it to push it? I guess one case is when there's a wind gradient and you can get more wind closer to the line. Small gain in most cases, though. The bigger case is when the wind is shifting and you need to get "course right" to take advantage of the shift. And of course that's also the more difficult case to manage because short-gybing the line (or a coastline) requires constant attention. I think aside from those, it's probably fine to give it a wider margin.

And... Accidentally crossing the line for a few minutes is going to hurt you more than pushing the limit for an hour will gain... So... It's partly a function of risk management relative to your availability to be attentive.

To answer Scup's question... Yup. I usually sleep 6-8 hours a night. Sometimes I'll check my phone from bed for the 3:30 AM (local time) wind update, if I happen to wake up. It's rare that I wake up in the middle of the night on purpose. Usually just in an occasional coastal race like C600.

Post by BooBill | 2020-11-30 | 02:55:35

Absolutely. I'm not talking about staying up at 60S. The difference in the circumference of the earth between 45s and 44s is 265 miles. That's if you were to completely circle the earth hugging the line. I'm not even talking about giving it 1 degree of room. I'm just saying the actual advantage of trying to get as close as possible is probably outweighed by the risk and tactical disadvantage.

BTW, don't pay attention to what I actually do. I only talk a smart game.

Post by Scup | 2020-11-30 | 04:54:09

I like that you've done the calculations though!
As with a lot of things...it's a personal decision on risk v reward.

PS....I'm still right behind you on WishfulThinking and chasing hard (but staying there by the look of it. Over the past few days the distance between us hasn't changed by more than 1-2nm).

Post by vg78fr | 2020-11-30 | 09:34:16

Hello,
I don't understand.
Zezo route programation stay me upper the ice limit BUT when program on VR the red line is cut. Why?
Thanks.
vg78fr

Post by karriv | 2020-11-30 | 10:32:42

What you get from zezo is an approximation of the optimal route, copying the directions does not end up in you following the exact route in the game.

Post by nrten | 2020-11-30 | 09:40:06

What exactly is the exclusion zone in the UI? Crossing the red line or entering the area North and south of the red line with the transparent thick lines?

Post by jokap | 2020-11-30 | 13:54:22

It seems like requin78 has just answered this question for us...he is down to 6 knots barely having crossed the red line at 44�S 49' 52'', 009�E 54' 47''.
I would post screenshots if this was possible but it doesn't appear to me how...

Post by BooBill | 2020-11-30 | 09:49:52

vg78fr, VR will allow you to steer a course that violates the ice limit. It does not appear to offer any warning, like it would if you were on a collision course with land, and the predicted path does not take into account the speed reduction penalty.

Nten, as far as I know, the red line is the one that counts. The other lines are just the warning area.

Post by nrten | 2020-11-30 | 15:08:24

Thx a lot!

Post by vg78fr | 2020-11-30 | 09:56:01

Don't know. Thx for your reply.
Good wind !
vg78fr

Post by karriv | 2020-11-30 | 10:40:21

Looks like they just updated he IEZ in the game.

Post by zezo | 2020-11-30 | 10:41:44

Previous game client was misleading at the ice limit.

It would not indicate tour actual speed. They may have fixed it, or maybe not.

Only way to be sure us the server-side boat speed from the Dashboard.

Post by Fly_Star_TVD | 2020-11-30 | 11:07:56

VR has changed the ice limit

Post by WakeUp650 | 2020-11-30 | 11:12:32

They've updated the ZEA in the game so it is now the same as the real one. Do you think you'll have time to manage this change on ZEZO map?
Thank you

Post by zezo | 2020-11-30 | 13:46:04

Fixed.

Post by WakeUp650 | 2020-11-30 | 13:48:14

Thank you. Once again you are so efficient. Bravo!

Post by PBR | 2020-11-30 | 13:55:08

VR changed the exclusion zone, will this be reflected in zezo?

Post by jokap | 2020-11-30 | 13:57:39

BEWARE!
Reposting so this doesn't go unnoticed (see above):

It seems like requin78 has just answered this question for us...he is down to 6 knots barely having crossed the red line at 44�S 49' 52'', 009�E 54' 47''.
I would post screenshots if this was possible but it doesn't appear to me how...

Post by mermol2 | 2020-11-30 | 15:57:15

New ZEA for qtVLM:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4dgp8oerrmn1b0d/zea_301120.qbar?dl=0

Post by NumeroDixTV | 2020-12-01 | 15:11:36

Hello zezo,

There are differences between 30E and 35E on VG/VR (and perhaps Zezo)
As we cannot check coordinates on VR, is your ice limit the good one ?

Thanks for your hard work,

Post by WaterHammer | 2020-12-01 | 15:37:18

I'm wondering the same indeed.

Post by NumeroDixTV | 2020-12-01 | 15:45:08

The limit in VR just changed 3 times during the last 15 minutes, wtf is happening :(

Post by zezo | 2020-12-01 | 17:21:18

Currently (VR):

"lat":-45,"lon":30
"lat":-44.3333,"lon":35
"lat":-43.5,"lon":40,

Post by zezo | 2020-12-01 | 17:30:54

Fixed.

diff ice_2.txt ice_3.txt
43,44c43,44
< -45.3333,30
< -45,35
---
> -45,30
> -44.3333,35

Post by mermol2 | 2020-12-10 | 13:05:48

ZEA_V3: TO BE CHANGED SOON IN VR
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hgdcfo5qj17ur0s/zea_111220.qbar?dl=0

Post by YourMomSA | 2020-12-10 | 16:25:59

Are they changing it or not?