Zezo forum:

Post by zezo | 2017-11-16 | 16:22:05

Opening a new thread so the information does not sink on the bottom of the old one (http://zezo.org/forum.pl?tid=6052)

26 Comments

Post by zezo | 2017-11-16 | 16:30:10

So after the rant there I'll try to explain what's going on under the hood (might be wrong, of course, because it's deduced by observing the game behavior and trying to find logical explanation)

Some definitions first:

- Server - some computer in the cloud where your boat lives. It's responsible vor movement, programming, waypoint execution and so on.

- Client - your phone/broser. Responsible of showing what the server knows about your boat and for sending commands back

Ideally (and that has been the case before) the client does not move your boat. It just reports when the server moves it.

Now VR have decided to play it smart and made the client show the boat moving without server interaction, and opened a can of worms by doing it.

1) The server moves your boat every 2 minutes in the curent races.
2) But the client moves the boat every minute (once by itself, once per srver report)
3) But the server does not report position immediately. It looks like there is 1 minute delay. There would be a problem even without that, but it makes it worse, because it greatly increases the probability of inconsistency

... TBC ...

Post by woffer | 2017-11-16 | 18:06:21

Question - Cvetan, do you know if the server updates boat positions on even or odd numbered minutes? My presumption based on the Extension log is the answer is odd. Or is that just because of latency in the process?

Post by zezo | 2017-11-16 | 18:09:59

Different boats are updated at different times.

At a first glance the update actually happens in the midpoint between the client messages you see as positions in the extension - based on when a sail change penalty appears. But I haven't done proper systematic testing yet.

Post by zezo | 2017-11-16 | 16:36:23

So you've probably seen tracks like this



\ p2

 \/\/

 p1 p3

when executing single jibe. boat coming from NW

Here is what (most probably) causes it. Let's call the corners p1, p2, p3

At moment t0 boat is in position p1. The server moves it, but does not tell you. So you make a turn, the clients projects your movement and displays you at p2

But in the server your boat is at a point below p2, so when it moves it goes to p3

Which would not matter much, unless there is a rock at p3

Post by marcusbelgicus | 2017-11-17 | 23:35:09

Thanks for that piece of information Cvevan, now I understand why I got grounded in Normandie during the TJV.
What about mobile phones? I have the feeling, but no way to verify it that there is a better synchronisation between the boat position on your screen and the position of the server. I will try to check more carefully tomorrow.

Post by zezo | 2017-11-17 | 23:56:41

Web and mobile client should be the same for all practical purposes.
There may be some minor differences on different platforms/operating systems which can make your phone behave slightly better or Chrome/Windows behave slightly worse, but they all share exactly the same program code.

Post by zezo | 2017-11-16 | 16:45:45

Similar thing happens when you try to get off the rocks.

Let's say the sever moves boats every 2 minutes. There is a small rock below p2.

So you notice you are grounded at p1 in the above piucture.

at 00:00:00 sever moves boat into rock

at 00:00:10 you turn NE. Your client tells the server.

at 00:01:00 the client projects your boat to p2. You decide you are off the rocks and can continue on your route SE.

at 00:01:10 you turn the helm and the client tells the server to move your boat SE next time it moves.

at 00:02:00 the server looks at your last known boat position and that's p1. Then it looks at desired direction and that's SE. So it keeps banging into the rock.

To avoid this you have to exit the race to the game home screen and then enter the race again. This forces position update and you know for real if you are off the rocks or not. Or wait 3 minutes after the 180 degree turn.

Post by JohnT | 2017-11-16 | 20:43:02

So if I understand correctly: VR2 ran on a 7 minute cycle and course change was honored based on the time received, even though it might take time for the update to show correctly on your screen. Now we have a 'faster' 2 minute cycle, but effectively a slower response time since if you don't wait 2 minutes things may get out of sync. WOW - what progress!

Post by zezo | 2017-11-16 | 20:45:33

No. I think that VR2 was running on 10-minute cycle and changes were executed on the next update. But boat position was always in sync because there was no client-side movement. The programmed turns were executed with 1-minute accuracy. In VR1 programmed turns were also run on 10-minute increments.

Post by JohnT | 2017-11-16 | 21:02:54

My bad re the old timing cycle. I'd still take a guaranteed 1 min response over the current maybe/maybe not system. But since we don't have that choice, I'll just plan it that it takes at least 2 minutes for the navigator to relay a message to the helmsman ;)

Post by WretchedExess | 2017-11-16 | 20:46:00

I dont know if this is along the same line or not. I had an instance this morning where VR the game showed my boat speed 14.6 but VR Dashboard showed it as closer to 13. I closed and reopened the browser and the 2 were back in sync.

Post by mak08 | 2017-11-16 | 21:46:45

There are many possible causes. If you refer to column 'vR' in the Dashboard, then most likely the UI was hanging (as this has been reported several times already), or the Dashboard.

Post by WretchedExess | 2017-11-17 | 04:24:32

Right now The game is telling me 15.6 and Dashboard is saying 17.54 (Zero is off my Starboard bow and VR shows him at him at 17.3. ) Reload VR and poof. dashboard and the game match.

Post by karriv | 2017-11-17 | 09:13:29

The client moving the boat is actually a very major issue. I use my laptop to play, and normally I only restart the machine once a month or so. Otherwise I use standby or whatever it is called. Now the issue with the client moving the boat is that when I revive my laptop from standby, the client apparently fetch information from the server, but doesn't say anything about that. It just moves the boat as per the course/programmations entered e.g. the previous night (not taking into account changes made over the mobile client), and according to the winds of the previous night, not taking into account possibly two wind updates. So basically what you see in the client is something completely different than what is the actual situation on the server. Then, if you don't know this, you proceed to steer your boat according to this inaccurate information... Apparently the commands you give are then sent to the server... It is very difficult for me to understand what can be achieved by having the client moving the boat.

I am more and more of the opinion that this new VRO3 is a piece of utter crap. They have made many many very poor decisions regarding how the game functions (or does not function).

Post by zezo | 2017-11-17 | 12:22:28

You should at least exit the game to the home screen before suspending the machine.

Entering a race seems to force position update. And then all kind of weird things happen when the machine wakes up from sleep - all timouts expire simultaneously (a program could be waiting on 1- second or 1-day alarm - it will fire). Network connectivity won't be available in the first instant, but there may not be indication about it and so on.

That's a good exanple why client-side updates are not a good idea. They are mostly meaningless with 1-2 minute server cycle and almost impossible to get right.

Post by mcmgj | 2017-11-17 | 23:51:00

The problem is graver than it countered, there indeed, if the message of change of road towards the server is refused further to an error of transmission, it is never dismissed by the Client, as long as it does not touch its boat. Furthermore, if you take back your road from another terminal you will have a big surprise, especially if the other terminal was not automatically disconnected and what it has supplies a different direction.

Post by zezo | 2017-11-18 | 00:02:48

That's another side of the same problem. Because there is no modal confirmation dialog about changes, there is also no modal message that says "your command failed". So it lurks somewhere there.

Post by JohnT | 2017-11-18 | 01:01:39

Thanks for helping explain some of the strange things I have seen. I was used to leaving my PC running and navigating on my phone or laptop when away from it. I was annoyed that the new game logs you out when you use a different device, but think the best plan now to to make sure I close all VR windows on every device every time. Which is even more of a pain since the only setting they seem to remember is the language: you still get music and sounds every time you log on; and they are a real resource hog (apart from being annoying!).

Post by zezo | 2017-11-18 | 01:33:55

The single device restriction is probably a consequence of the game platform FR have outsourced the game to (gamesparks) and would be appropriate for a WoW or CoD kind of game where you are not supposed to shoot the enemy and cast spells from two devices simultaneously, but is stupid for a sailing game where you can't even see where your boat is going without logging off your other session.

About settings and accounts - some of my browsers/PCs remember the settings and others don't. Guess it has something to do with cookies and/or browser local storage but haven't bothered to check what exactly causes it.

Post by Lazy_Hikers_Finland | 2017-11-18 | 03:37:26

Aah, the music. Only in the best of games you hear such beauty. Personally I spend hours and hours just listening to that music while my boat does some 180 turns on its own and gets some nice wind pufs that turn it here and there. But really I do not mind because of the supreme music I am entitled to listen.

I am willing to go as far as proposing a better business model where you get every now and then some cards that allow you to listen to the music for 10 minutes. And then of course you could buy them in a package with help cards.

Yps, got to go. Nearly missed my gype time listening to the lovely sounds.

PS. I have to listen to the music with headphones because my wife hates the noise.

Post by Lazy_Hikers_Finland | 2017-11-18 | 05:47:14

Buger, a new problem : ERROR I have been disconnected ! All other sites are accesible but the one site with the worlds best elevator music is not there. Give me my music, never mind the boat.

Post by zezo | 2017-11-22 | 21:58:50

Here is an example of the game events leading to 3-minute latency. Comes from the development version of the extension:

- I turn the helm at 19:30:02.

- The command is submitted at 19:30:12 with declared stamp 19:31:00

- Server update runs at 19:30:53 and ignores it because declared stamp is
in the future.

- Finally gets executed at next update at 19:33:01. At that time the boat has moved at least 0.6 miles from the point at which I had turned the helm.

Post by GeGaX | 2017-11-22 | 22:22:42

Which is why we struggled to get out of aground ...

Post by zezo | 2017-11-22 | 22:33:25

That, combined with client-side boat movement.

Also the reason to get grounded in the first place.

You have to exit the race to the main screen and enter again to make sure you are off the beach.

Post by GeGaX | 2017-11-22 | 22:49:37

In the end the ideal is to make a 180 � and then disconnect
After 2min it is possible to change the course again?

Post by marcusbelgicus | 2017-11-23 | 23:52:51

Now I have a perfect explanation for my grounding in Normandie on the TVJ, the boat movement has been quite surprising in my case : 1 step east, tack, 1 step south, come back from steps back, 1 step east again, come back, $#%@ sh.t from the virtual sailor (!), north to get out, 2 or 3 steps north, then east again...
3 miles lost and race finished! I have still be lucky to get out in a decent time.